Below is a transcript of an interview conducted by Nir Eyal, renowned business consultant and entrepreneur, with David Burkus, multi-award winning podcast host on psychology, leadership, and business, lecturer in management at Oral Roberts University College of Business. (Oral Roberts University) and bestselling author of The New Style of Management. Unexpected Truths about Leading Great Organizations” (New Management: the Unexpected Truths about Leading Great Organizations). This conversation focused on topics such as obsession with technology and maintaining work-life balance. Enjoy reading.
Nier: When companies ask me how they can make a product that can do it, about half the time I have to apologize and say they don't stand a chance. There are a number of criteria that can be analyzed to determine whether a particular product has the potential to form a habit or not. But that doesn't mean these companies should go out of business; they may well become successful without such products.
Have you ever looked at a company and said, “Hey, your workspaces don't look exciting enough. You don't get high returns from people, everything is pretty standard, routine work"? Or does each company have the potential to create more interesting products?
David: There are professions that are not destined to become the subject of childhood dreams. But even with this in mind, you can always find companies that strive to properly equip the workspace of employees.
From the standpoint of organizational behavior, we are accustomed to relying on Frederick Taylor, the father of scientific management. It is he who has the best ideas about how to manage a factory and people whose job is to repeat the same operations and solve the same problems over and over. But most people today are not engaged in this kind of work, and Taylorism is becoming something of a scarecrow: “Boring, dull and monotonous work is still the main object of the claims of scientific management, but for working with information we need more autonomy and a higher workspace. quality."
Nier: At the very least, workspaces give people the opportunity to create communities, build relationships. Even if the work itself leaves much to be desired, perhaps it is the care of the members of the team about each other that becomes the saving tool that helps to overcome various kinds of difficulties.
David: Yes, we are all responsible for each other. In the Taylor era, there were only two things: work and management—and the job of management was to tell workers what to do. The idea that we are all in the same boat and can collectively overcome any difficulties is as old as the world, but in the world of management it is still something new.
Nier: How expensive can such autonomy cost? Think of the Hawthorne effect, which says that people perform better when they feel they are being watched. What do you think about it?
David: The Hawthorne effect, in my opinion, is the presence of contact, the connection of people with each other. Productivity starts to rise when people feel that you pay attention to their work, that you care. Therein lies the connection.
Employees often let their employers or clients know about this by saying, "We want feedback." It only works if you then say, “Okay, we hear you, and here's what we'll do.” The fact that we listen to each other and make changes based on your needs means that care and attention matter.
Nier: It's the understanding that I'm not being controlled; that I am able to exert some influence.
David: Exactly. We follow the trend that the more often people can communicate with each other, the higher the quality of their cooperation. Now more and more it seems that it overloads us. Email, social media, and now we need to break the habit of using them in order to be able to focus on the right things.
If I understand your work correctly, all these things are natural for this kind of product, but what about them?
Nier: We live in a world where there are so many great products and services that it's sometimes hard to let them go. In addition, many of them are free and easily accessible. In many ways, this can be considered a blessing, but even Sophocles said that "nothing great enters the life of mortals without a curse."
It happens with every revolution. For the first time in history, more people are dying of calorie surplus rather than calorie deficit, more people are dying of excess rather than starvation. This is the problem with agriculture. The Industrial Revolution gave us mechanization - no one wants to go back to the age of steam engines - but now we have the problem of man-made pollution.
It should be noted that in the current information age, the main disadvantage of all these products and services that can instantly connect us with each other is that attention itself becomes a scarce resource. This is the price we have to pay. We are the first generation to have to master all these technologies. For our children and grandchildren, all this will not seem out of the ordinary. They quickly adapt to all this, but for us all these technologies will always remain something new, and we have not yet figured out what place to give them in our lives.
We still have not figured out the main question: does technology serve us, or do we serve it? The boogeyman of my industry is B.F. Skinner and the Skinner boxes that keep people pushing buttons all day long. But the reality is that it has nothing to do with coercion. People do it willingly and voluntarily.
For the most part, all of these things are great. But there are also people who are not just used to new technologies, but have become dependent on them, but most will still be able to put their smartphones on the shelf without much difficulty and not touch them. Most people moderate their behavior.
But the catch is that these people cannot do without these technologies at work. Without the same work e-mail and instant messengers. People are not dependent on technology, they are dependent on their work.
David: Why is work email so addictive? When you signed up in 2008, you didn't think you'd volunteered to take work home every night, but that's exactly what we came up with. There used to be workers who were available on demand, they were given Blackberry phones, and even then we should have taken this as a kind of warning.
Do you really think we're actually so addicted to work that if we were to give up work email, we'd still be left with the feeling of having to keep working 24/7?
Nier: Let's say that tomorrow you win $20,000,000 in the lottery. And now you don't have to hang around in the office all day long. Will you still be using Slack? Will you still use SharePoint or Salesforce? No, you will stop using all those programs and services because the only reason you were using them was because your boss said so. Most people won't say, "Oh my God, I can't quit my job because I love using Salesforce so much." It's not software, it's a burden of work. It's "my boss is waiting for me, my clients are waiting for me, we have to be in touch all the time."
This is the real source of the problem. Tools only exacerbate it, but if you remove one of the variables, you will see that people will very quickly stop using these technologies unless they are at their workplace. This is not the case in the consumer web when it comes to Facebook and Twitter. People love to use these products, but this is a different category of services where the product itself has arguably more influence than the user. When it comes to corporate products, a lot of people, if they were suddenly hit by 20,000,000, would never check their work email.
David: If 20 million fell on me, then I would go to Facebook, but only to talk about my winnings.
When I turn to research on the factors that increase employee productivity, I immediately think of Anders Ericsson's study of conscious practice. One of the findings of the study is that people who achieved world-class excellence in their profession got more rest than the average person. Their work session was 90 minutes and then they took a break.
We understand that the less time we work, the more valuable that time becomes. When you are engaged in work day and night, no one will tell you "go home, be with your wives, children and loved ones." Is there anything we can do on an individual level to protect ourselves and only work a certain number of hours?
Nier: There is a great book called Sleeping with Your Smartphone. The author, Leslie Purlow, did the research at the Boston Consulting Group. She gave the company's employees a simple task: "What can you do to give each team member one night of rest?" Many consultants at the firm said it was impossible: “We are in the service industry; our customers expect 24-hour service from us.”
She then asked, "What would it take for you to be able to develop such a system?" In her research, she found that it wasn't just technology. It was about the fact that there were no open channels of communication between these consulting teams that could raise sensitive issues.
We see this situation everywhere. We see it in the family. Why does dad watch football every night? Why can't we get together and talk like a family instead of watching TV in the evenings? Why do teenagers disappear behind their phones all day long?
It may not be the fault of new technologies at all. Maybe we're just trying to run away from something. Maybe this happens because there are no established lines of communication, communication that can solve these problems. If anyone thinks that we really are addicted to technology, I think it's not just about them. This is a reason to think. "What am I running from? Why do I feel uncomfortable about being bored for just a few minutes?
David: The book "Under New Management" offers a bunch of different practices. One of them is a complete ban or severe restriction on the use of e-mail. People ask, "That's great, but how can we incorporate them into our corporate culture?" But the truth is that these are not practices of adding, they are practices of taking away. They reason something like this: “Wait a minute. I want to do my best, but if something gets in my way, I have to fix it."
In some cases it's email, in others it's a recruitment process, in others it's a performance review system. The people who are the best at their jobs should have the right to kill the sacred cows. But we all prefer to follow the established rules.
Nier: These habits of the mind, the urge to act as before, permeate many areas of our lives. The worst thing we can do is to believe that technology controls us.
Studies show that addicts who believe that the drug controls them, that they are powerless against the drug, have a high relapse rate. If we start believing that email is addictive, or disaster strikes, if we don't respond to incoming email on time, if we think we're powerless in the face of technology, that's what we'll become.
David: The real problem is the feeling that these things control us. And the real problem with companies is the belief that they control their employees. We live in an era where truly talented executives understand that everyone is essentially a free agent and there is always the option to leave and find another job.
Allowing organizations to control and model employee behavior is dangerous. A person continues to work for you only as long as you give him what he needs. As soon as it disappears, he leaves.
We spent a lot of time talking about changing behavior and questioning many beliefs. Was there something that controlled you, but when you began to doubt it, changed your behavior?
Nier: My biggest successes in life have come from challenging my core beliefs. Some of them were very personal. When I was 18, I took a year off between high school and college. This was in 1997. AmeriCorps, the inner peace corps, had just been launched by the Clinton administration. I was in my first or second year when I decided to try. Everyone around me told me: “This is a stupid idea. You don't want to go back to college anymore." My parents begged me not to do it. Now we call it a year of rest, a gap year, but then no one did that. It was one of the best things I have ever done.
David: Your way is more philosophical than mine.
Now I use two devices. One for email, writing and social media. At the end of the day, I switch to my iPad, which I mostly use for entertainment: Facebook, Netflix, and more.
A two-device email strategy is a great way to figure out if you're addicted to it or not. If you are constantly reaching for the one on which mail is available, using another device, then you are addicted.
Nier: Very good advice. I'll give you one more.
A few years ago, I discovered that around 10 pm, when I was supposed to go to bed, I was surfing the net, reading articles, watching videos, etc., and did not go to bed on time. Then I bought an inexpensive timer socket and connected a router to it. As soon as the time reached 10, the timer turned off the Internet. Of course, if I wanted to, I could turn it back on, but for this I had to do additional steps. But even that was enough for me to ask myself one simple question: do I really need the Internet to finish something, or am I wasting my time? This is a simple question, but it changes a lot.
We live in the 21st century and we are surrounded by technology. Is it good or is it bad? Let's think about it.
The first thing that springs to mind is technology is great. It makes our life easier in many ways. For instance we have a lot of kitchen appliances that help us cook, cut, and wash in less time than 20 years ago. So housing has become much less time consuming. It applies to many other areas of our lives.
Technologies help us be connected. Most people have some kind of a smart phone that allows them to stay online, share their news with friends and relatives no matter where they are at the moment. Nowadays we have easy access to information, which help in education and business. There are numerous resources that give people the opportunity to study at home or be accepted in a university abroad without leaving their home country.
Of course we need to mention technologies used in medicine. They help save lives or improve lives of those who suffered from accidents or were born with some abnormalities. Technologies help us travel in quicker ways. The list of advantages can go and on.
But does technology have disadvantages? It does definitely. The speed with which modern technologies develop and our attempts to catch up with it make our lives more stressful. We have become more isolated, as more and more people replace real relations with social media ones. We virtually don’t need to go out to satisfy our basic needs like food, medicine etc.
Technology definitely improves our lives but only when used in moderation.
Translation:
Technology in our life
We live in the 21st century and technology surrounds us. Is it good or bad? Let's think.
The first thing that comes to mind is that technology is great. They make our life easier. For example, there are now many household appliances that help us cook, cut and wash in less time than 20 years ago. Housekeeping now takes much less time. And this is true in many areas of our lives.
Technology helps us stay connected all the time. Most now have a smartphone with which they access the Internet, share news with friends and relatives, wherever they are. Today it is very easy to access the information you need, which helps both in education and in business. There are many resources that allow you to study at home, there is an opportunity to enter a foreign university without leaving your home country.
Of course, the technologies used in medicine should also be noted. They help save lives and improve the quality of life for those who have been injured in an accident or born with a disability. Technology allows us to travel with less and less time. The list of advantages that technology gives us can be continued for quite some time.
In The Matrix Reloaded, the hero says: “Some machines help us live, while others kill us. Curious, right? The ability to give life and take it away ... ”This phrase makes you think. Let's add some more real facts here:
1. UN recognized right for access to Internet one of the inalienable human rights.
2. The best-selling commodity today is mobile phones.
3. More and more business processes are being automated and completely dependent on computers.
4. The most expensive brand in the world is the Apple brand.
The trend is obvious - technology is becoming an integral part of our lives. The fact that we need them is beyond doubt. Today the question is different: Can we survive without modern technology?
Many of you have probably heard the joke: Wikipedia: I know everything! Google: I'll find everything! Facebook: I know everyone! Internet: Without me, you are nothing! Electricity: Be silent...» Let's not say what will happen to the world without electricity, imagine at least what will happen if the Internet disappears or GPS satellites stop working. How long will our Internet-dependent high-tech generation “stretch”, how long can we endure their absence. The term "addiction" has recently been increasingly applied to technology. This is also a big problem, but we are not talking about that now.
Microsoft Office has made life and work easier for company employees. They began to do much more work or the same amount, but in much less time. But deprive them of this tool, and any employee will end up in a pile of papers of unknown origin, and data analysis will turn into a very difficult task. And how will people exchange information if at least one channel (whether it be e-mail or mobile communication) disappears? When this happens even for a few hours, performance drops to zero.
Leave mankind without television and millions of people will simply have nothing to do. And it's not about those who work on television, but about those who watch it. People spend a huge amount of time in front of the TV screen. What will housewives who are used to their soap operas and cooking shows do?
What about healthcare facilities? Modern medical equipment is literally crammed with electronics, and even a small failure in its operation can cost patients their lives.
In the words of American comedian George Carlin: “The only difference between us and the barbarians is electricity. Turn it off and we'll be back in prehistoric times." Today, technology is like a creature with many limbs. If just one is cut off, humanity will have problems, and if several are cut off, then the very survival of the human race will be in jeopardy.
Perhaps all of the above is not a significant problem, and, in the end, people will cope with this, but only if some alternative technologies appear that simply do not exist now.
Based on materials
Technology
How many devices do you currently have on hand? How often in the last hour have you checked your social media accounts? When was the last time you played video games? It may seem that the answers to these questions are not related, but dependence on technology is becoming more and more real, and can have dire consequences. According to a study published in magazine PLoS ONE, people who are addicted to the Internet may there are chemical changes in the brain, similar to those that occur in alcoholics and drug addicts. And that's just on the internet - think of all the other technologies we succumb to every day.
So, the "diseases" associated with technology.
1. Phantom Vibration Syndrome
Have you ever grabbed your cell phone with complete confidence, as if you felt it vibrate, only to find that it didn't buzz at all? This is what many call "phantom vibration syndrome". Those suffering from the syndrome feel the vibration even when their devices are in a completely different room. The name is most likely borrowed from phantom limb syndrome, a condition in which someone who has lost a limb experiences sensory hallucinations as if it were still functioning. A similar thing happens with the phantom vibration syndrome, when a person perceives phones as an extension of himself. According to a book by a professor of psychology Larry Rosen iDisorder, 70 percent of those who actively use mobile devices experience phantom vibrations.
2. Internet addiction
Internet addiction or Internet addiction is an indispensable desire to use the Internet in such a way that it begins to interfere with everyday life. Research shows that Internet addiction can lead to the same type of social problems as other established addictions, such as gambling. It is important to note, however, that internet addiction is not yet recognized as a disorder. In 2008, in an editorial in American Journal of Psychiatry Dr. Gerald J. Block wrote that Internet addiction can be characterized by excessive use of the Web, withdrawal after abrupt cessation of use, and negative consequences such as fatigue. Pathological internet use can also lead to major depression.
3. Addiction to social media
Considered a subset of internet addiction, social media addiction is probably one of the most common technology addictions of recent times. Researchers from the University of Chicago interviewed 250 people. They received more than eight thousand reports about the daily desires of the respondents and their interaction with devices. According to the study, it is much more difficult to refuse to check and update a page on social networks than to give up an addiction to alcohol or tobacco.
In Norway, researchers have proposed a method called the Bergen Facebook Addiction Scale to help users find out if they are suffering from social addiction. The test is based on six main criteria. With it, you can find out how dependent a person is on social networks.
4. Gaming Addiction
Gaming addiction, like Internet addiction, is characterized by the interference of games in aspects of life, and along with it, is not yet officially considered a disorder. However, excessive The use of video games is already leading to dire consequences.. The fatal outcome of such an addiction has already been registered - in July 2011, a 20-year-old programmer died of deep vein thrombosis due to the fact that he led a sedentary lifestyle for too long.
The 21st century burst into our lives very quickly and brought with it the rapid development of computer technology and everything connected with them. We are used to the fact that all our phones and important contacts are recorded in phones, computers, laptops and other portable gadgets. We completely rely on technology, we are dependent on it. Count how many computers, monitors, phones you have at home! A lot of? There are probably more phones than the number of people in your family, and everyone probably has their own computer.
Why are we so dependent on modern technology and everything connected with it?
Problem
Development of addiction
Did you know that certain video games trigger the release of dopamine in the brain? Recall that dopamine is also released during sex and food, things that are considered necessary for the survival of man as a species. It turns out a vicious circle - games give an impulse for the release of dopamine, and dopamine is something like a hormone of pleasure (its narcotic analogues are amphetamine, methamphetamine, ephedrine), so later we want to get high from the game again and we sit down to play again.
But dopamine isn't only released when we play video games. Checking e-mail has exactly the same effect. Count how many times a day you check your inbox, even if there is nothing particularly important there? This is especially true of the sound signals that accompany the receipt of a new letter. You don't know if this message is important, but it's still itching to see what's in there, even if it's just another spam. It turns out directly dependence on signals and Pavlov's experiments with dogs come to mind.
As long as there were only desktop computers, the problem was not so big. But as soon as laptops, netbooks, smartphones and various gadgets like the iPad appeared, everything became much worse, because now you check your mail (twitter, facebook, VKontakte - underline as necessary) not only at home, but also in transport, in cafes, on picnic, wherever there is access to the Internet. And now here you can add mobile Internet and WiFi.
Information overload
We process three times as much information today as we did 50 years ago. And it becomes more and more. If earlier it took a lot of effort and time to print a book, now it is enough to sit down at a computer and put it on the net. Only now not only writers, journalists and various public figures write, but everyone who can write and read. Accordingly, now it is necessary to filter even more carefully and much larger amounts of information. And in spite of all this, we cannot spend even three days calmly without reading the news (especially those related to the world of technology), because we are afraid that we will miss something and will not catch up. As the black queen from "Through the Looking Glass" said - "In our world, my dear, to stay in place, you need to run, and to move, you need to run even faster."
Technology etiquette
In the past few years, "pocket" devices have been updated at a tremendous speed. Is it right to scribble empty even a short post on twitter while driving? I think no. But some do it anyway. In the same way, it will not be very polite to sit in the company of friends and bury your head on your smartphone and read the news feed there or check your mail. Please note that you are not required to respond to all messages immediately. Yes, there are cases when it is urgent, but all the same, hands reach out to check and answer. It's great when this is good news - share the positive with your friends, but if all this is not very pleasant, then you not only do not take a break from work, but also spoil the mood of the people around you.
Solution
So what can we do to stop constantly staring at screens and not spending weekends and evenings behind the console, and finally begin to see and hear the world around us and people?
Out of sight, out of mind
The usual scenario: you take your phone out of your pocket to check the time, at the same time you start checking your e-mail, this leads to a response to letters, etc. As a result, a simple and short operation “check the time” turns into a whole set of operations that takes 5 times more time. If you pulled out your phone to check the time, try to do just that and no more. If it’s very difficult to resist checking your mail, wear a watch on your hand.
You are not a multi-tasking machine
This does not mean that now all things need to be done separately. Listening to your favorite tracks while running can also be attributed to multitasking, but this is welcome. But an attempt to simultaneously watch a TV show or a movie and do work at this time is not very welcome. You will not be able to properly concentrate on work and miss the most interesting part of the program. In the end, the constant combination of things will lead to the fact that you simply can no longer concentrate normally on only one thing. As a result, the work will not be done as well in a longer time. This also includes working on a computer on a project and simultaneously checking messages in instant messengers, twitter and social networks. For an experiment, try to turn off everything unnecessary and focus only on work. I think it will take you two times less time than with the included instant messengers and open social networks.
never apologize
How often do you apologize for not being able to pick up the phone because you were riding the subway/walking with your child/working out at the gym? First, you don't have to apologize for being unavailable after hours. Second, it shows your addiction to responding to messages immediately. Stop apologizing. You are human and just might not be able to do everything right now. Allow yourself the luxury of replying to a message when you have the opportunity and the mood to do so. Of course, this does not mean that you can safely ignore emails from clients during business hours. Otherwise, people may get the not-so-true feeling that you can answer calls and emails at any day and time of the day.
Organize your time
We usually talk more about organizing our time than we actually do it. Start with mail! Many email clients offer you very handy tools for this business (folders, shortcuts, etc.). " " from Google will come in handy for dividing your posts into just "important" and "very important". At the moment there is only a beta version available not for everyone.
In any case, getting out of the habit of always and everywhere being inseparable from your devices and staying without communication for a long time does not go painlessly. Get ready, you're going to have a breakdown anyway and a little panic that you've missed something. But it's worth it. You will feel much freer and the state of "always connected" gives only visible freedom, actually tying us tightly to the technology and places of "residence" of the Internet.
